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Todd Shapiro what's up man um let's go Into this at a minimum tragic case at a Maximum criminal case over in the UK When it comes to hockey when you see This incident between Matt petgrave and Adam Johnson Adam Johnson Sadly has died when you see that Incident um do you think it amounts to Anything Criminal uh first of all well thanks for Having me I always enjoy being on with You and and talking about uh issues and Cases and the law Um do I think it was criminal no I I I Don't I think it was a tragic accident I Think it was within the field of play Hockey is a dangerously brutal sport uh Very physical as we know involves a lot Of body checking hip checking knee Checking a lot of intimidation you know I've slowed this video down and watched It multiple times as I'm sure you have As well um Taking a step back even further you know We we we we can look at all realm of Sport and and try to decide what would Be considered criminal versus just part Of the game you know whether it's bad Taste or not and you really have to take It to the full extent of gross Negligence or recklessness or even Intentionally or knowingly you know to Say that should be criminal Behavior as Opposed to just a very bad accident of
Two two people you know really getting After it I think in this particular Instance uh it it was a very very Tragic obviously scene that the guy lost You know control of his leg and and and The skate was at just the perfect angle At the perfect moment at the perfect Time to do what it did I don't think There was ever any intent of course not There was not any intent the question is Was it Reckless you know in in in his Regard I just don't see how you can make I bridge that Gap it just doesn't seem Like that to me so so let's talk about The law let's you you mentioned several Terms and every State's going to have Their own law and this took place in England so it's going to be a different Set of Standards over there as well but This is an example of the types of laws That that exist in the United States Where they measure when something that Happens within the course of a game has Crossed over into a willing participant In the game into criminal conduct um This uh this particular statute reads Any blow struck in anger or which is Intended or likely to do bodily harm is Criminal assault a central issue is Whether the degree of forced used Exceeds that which be anticipated by a Player in consenting to participate to a Sport and now I want to read this from Newsweek this is talking about um
Perhaps applying it a little bit better Over to the UK um essentially the position is that Injuries caused in the course of an Ordinary lawful sporting contest are Within the bounds of ordinary conduct And hence do not give rise to liability Even when for example they contravene The rules of the game amounting to a Foul or violent conduct however extreme Recklessness a term that you just used Extreme recklessness for example wearing Deliberately extra sharpened boots or Something or a deliberately inflicted Injury of a serious kind might fall Outside the bounds of the exception of a Willing Participant if it leads to death and he Says I'm this particular professor of Criminal law at the London School of Economics says I'm not aware of anything Of this nature that was involved in this Case so Todd you know that sets the Standard which you kind of set for us it Needs to be extreme Reckless or Intended for the result in which case I Don't think the result intended has to Be death it could just be ass salt that That that results in death but that's Happened in sports we've seen the law Pursue actions in sports outside of the Realm of sports in the realm of Criminal Justice I I we've seen it in Hockey that's correct but I would think
That's more along the lines of you know Somebody taking it in a sport where a Stick is involved whether it's hockey or Baseball where you know the stick is Intended to use to hit the puck or to Hit a baseball and instead in a moment Of rage or anger sudden passion that Stick is now used as an assault weapon Right where we would see that out on the Street that that could be considered a Deadly weapon there was nothing about This situation that that skate was used In anger or in passion or hey I'm going After this guy and my skate is now Turning into a deadly weapon or a weapon That I'm intending to inflict some sort Of physical harm it was a moment that They were colliding in the in the course Of action the course of the game wherein Their bodies collided in such a way to Inflict the obvious terrible terrible Death that took place it was not as if He took his skap And slashed across the guy's face in Anger so I I that's where I see the Distinction an example that I was Talking to somebody about earlier would Be uh you know I'm shocked at this point In the NFL you know here at home these Guys have gotten so big so strong so Fast that there hasn't been a collision That causes some sort of serious B Injury or death on a on an NFL football Field um that if a defensive back or a
Safety were to come in first and hit a Wide receiver at the right angle that he Wouldn't crush a windpipe break a neck You know cause somebody to die right There on the field wherein you know They're coming in and and hitting Somebody so hard they didn't intend to Do anything other than make a football Play but they came in at such an angle That you know slow motion slowing Everything down frame by frame you're Like oh that's a Wan and willful act you Know I I just don't see it unless it's It's it's very obvious so you you Brought up the stick and there's that's Where the precedent lies in hockey it's The the most famous one I think is 2004 Um or rather 2000 it's the year 2000 It's it's uh Murley and Brasher any Sports fan that's roughly Y in my age Probably remembers that Donald brashier Marty Murley um hit him with a stick and Murle Ed in Canada getting 18 months Probation on a conviction of assault There's been others sucker punched and That kind of thing Todd bruzi and Steve Moore that went with civil liability but Let me ask you if if these two things Matter does does Matt pet Graves um performance history impact at All whether or not you would look at Potential criminal charges so you're Trying to put some intention into Recklessness or assault if he's you know
It's been stated he leads the league in Uh penalty minutes and two of the last Four games he's been kicked out for I Guess um going after the the refs or the Um is it the umps or the refs in hockey Forgive me I only tune in once the Playoff starts for the stars um but Going after the refs would his history On the ice impact at all potential Criminal charges I don't I don't think So I I you know if he's a goon if he's a An enforcer if he's a if he's one of These guys that's always seems to be in Some sort of penalty trouble I don't Think that can extrapolate into he's now A murderer uh or or he should be held Responsible for Manslaughter I just don't think in any Scenario what happened was contemplated In the moment that let me use my you Know I'm gonna I'm going to come after This guy and hopefully get my foot in The right position to really send a Message to him with my skate I I don't Think there was anything about that Situation that you can read it to and Yes intentions don't have to be stated Right it's not as if he's got to say Here I come with my skate and I'm going To use it as a weapon intention can be Inferred from actions and based upon What I've seen personally uh I don't see Anything in his actions that show intent Well that's my second thing that I want
To see if it impacted you know when I Look at the video and I'm just trying to Look at it dispassionately but and I I Made fun of myself a minute ago but I Have watched a decent amount of hockey And then I've also read from other Hockey players that's not a natural Movement like his leg coming up that High it looked like a karate chop or Karate kick you know his leg and his Skate was really high and I don't know The situation where you would end up you Know it it does to be honest just as a Layman just looking it does look like He's trying to kick the guy to me it Looks like he's trying to kick the guy That doesn't mean to me I think he's Trying to kill the guy or that he's even Trying to slice the guy but it does look Like to me an unnatural movement where He's trying to kick the guy does that Not I hear I think I've heard you say Several times it doesn't to you but I Imagine that's the whole calculus right Does it look natural um I I think it Looks like he lost control maybe lost Control of himself at the moment it Looks like I somebody mentioned to me Earlier it looks like he may have lost Control of that leg and and and as he Launched to try to collide it looked Like he was maybe trying to go knee to Knee I guess that's a a common hockey Move as well it's a dirty one it's not
One that's condoned by most players fans Or coaches but it looked like he was Maybe trying to take one leg at the Other leg um for for a particular type Of body check and then he simply lost Control of that leg and that's why it Flew up so high in the Uh along with the the victim falling at A certain angle I mean again the angles On this thing and the timing had to be So absolute and minute at the same Moment for this to happen the way it did It's almost like you know two ships Passing in the night it's just Impossible that it happen the way it did Except in that exact moment in time and It's just so very unfortunate that it Happened that way well the other Incident that pops to my mind that backs Up your conclusion that this isn't Criminal is the one that I thought Probably got the closest to criminality Which is I don't know if you remember This Tod but 2014 Tony Stewart and Kevin Ward at a sprint car race in like Upstate New York dirt track they had had A interaction on the track where I think Stewart had put Ward into the wall he Spun out he was mad everybody else went Under caution Ward gets out of his car Starts walking down the track towards The oncoming cars pointing and yelling Clearly targeting Tony Stewart and Tony Stewart's car Clips him and kills him
And the question then was did Tony Stewart just intentionally kill Kevin Ward because they were both mad at each Other and ultimately all all law Enforcement and prosecutors in in in New York came back with no that that that Didn't happen and if that to me if it if It didn't it just to me that illustrates The difficulty of finding Criminal Intent in sports I I agree with you yeah I mean if that if that didn't do it then Certainly something within the field to Play like this um just doesn't meet the Definition I I think uh what I read read Today was the police or law enforcement In England or are you know have the case Or investigating um I've read some Accounts from some players that were on Ice level um and saw the players Collide I don't think anybody um from that Perspective had any other conclusion Other than that it was an accident I Expect that law enforcement's going to Come to the same conclusion I would be Surprised if they went any other Direction all right Todd Shapiro my Buddy excellent lawyer Thank you as always man always a Pleasure thanks Pa hey it's Will Kane Click here to subscribe to the Fox News Channel on YouTube it's the best way to Get our latest interviews and highlights And click to subscribe to the will cane Podcast for full episodes right now
