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You know man I was just talking about The importance of a southern border and In many of the you know practical ways But also philosophical ways Michael I Mean the Practical effect is the the the Crisis that we've seen across the nation You saw some of it first in San Francisco but all over the nation when It comes to fenel but on a philosophical Level as well like what is the idea of a Nation state does the United States have An identifiable and maintainable culture But there's clearly a thought process Out there Michael represented perhaps Most notably now because of Davos with The world economic Forum that sees a More utopic vision for the world that Seemingly Michael rejects the idea of The nation State yeah hey well it's good to be with You again yeah I agree absolutely I Think there's basically two competing Visions I mean one is of civilization as We've had it for you know thousands of Years really in in the particular form Of liberal democracy that we' pioneered In the United States and it's not that Complicated really I mean you do have to Have borders that function you have to Have Law and Order meritocracy cheap Energy and if you wanted to be a Democracy you need free speech you need To have uh elections so in some ways It's so simple but yeah I think there's

There's been this challenging Paradigm Which says really no decisions are best Made at the global level it's best made At the United Nations or the world Economic Forum or the World Health Organization or UNESCO or you name it Many other Global Organizations you see I mean what's Interesting and you notice this it's Really important to Elites that they be Able to move people around the world This is extremely important to Elites in Europe it's important in the United States they um are very focused on Censoring and spreading their own Disinformation around this issue Suggesting that's not a problem it's now Gone to the point where obviously it is A huge problem but demonizing anybody That raises concerns around you know the Importation of large amounts large Numbers of unskilled workers which Obviously dampens wages for working People sort of dismissing all those Concerns as racist you know we were Looking at how there's just a a small Number of of messages that Elites use to Basically disparage and demonize their Opponents and they're very interesting It's it's basically that they're racists That they're fascist IST that they're Somehow connected to Russia and you Might think well those are you know all Things that that they think are true but

It's notable that they also they they Don't say things like oh it's Economically inefficient that was an Argument that was used in brexit briefly But even in brexit the focus was on Russia so you see there's a very intense Focus to kind of frame populists Nationalists mostly that's people on the Right but all is not necessarily that But what we've documented and where We've come to after a year of this now Is really that what you're seeing is Elites engaged in counterop populism and They're using the same tactics and tools That they developed in the war on Terrorism and this is why it's been so Confusing in terms of left and right Because we associate the war on Terrorism at least initially with George W bush of course it was heavily Prosecuted by Obama but you get to the End of the Obama Administration you get To Trump you know brexit in 2016 and Trump's election and you see Elites Start to turn these counterterrorist Tools um into counter populous tools you Know Mike we throw that word around I Use the word a lot you've used it Numerous times in your answer to me just Now Elites who are the Elites yeah I mean it really I don't Want to make it I'm not trying to be Super fancy with it I just mean you know College educated people that work in

That tend to work in journalism that Tend to be we sometimes say professional Managerial class that's a concept that Was developed by James Burnham um to describe how as capitalism Becomes more complex particularly after World War II you just you have all these Different agencies I mean there's you Know so many government agencies that Many people don't even know of or have Even heard of so you have this huge Class of educated people that work in You know NOS in media in journalism in Government in uh corporations you know We used to used to the idea used to be That corporations were where the Conservatives and Republicans were we've Seen even that's changed right where the Corporations the one that are pushing a Pretty radical uh trans agenda pushing You know a pretty radical climate agenda Black lives matter and and really sort Of moralizing a new morality a new what You might call a new woke morality on The whole population so that's who I Mean by elit but what do you think Mike Is the through line you know there was a Time when we would have used that term Um probably to to stratify a country Economically so the elit you would be Presumed to be be the wealthier side of Society but I'm not sure wealth um does The job of describing Elites many people Have written about this is it education

Level is it worldview is it a mindset by The way it's also sort of international It's it's not defined by necessarily American colleges or American Elites There's a Commonality and I'm not rejecting the Existence of Elites Mike I'm I'm Definitely not I believe as well with You that there is a small group of People defining what is acceptable What's acceptable to see what's Acceptable to think what's acceptable to Read even to some extent what's Acceptable to eat um but I'm not sure What defines them what's a through line Of who makes up the Elite yeah it's such a great question Will I think that I think you know Really if you go from World War II until Let's say 2016 with this populist Revolution both political parties left And right but also you saw in Europe had Elites and then you know you know Educated affluent Elites and then Working folks where really happens after 2016 is that it starts to split by Parties so you start to see you know the Elites really kind of moving more to the Left so you see the never Trump Republicans who I would say are more Professional managerial class Elites Becoming more Democrat um many of the Folks that had been Democrats that were More working class um and even some that

Are sort of anti Interventionist Anti-Imperialist Left-wing people like Matt taibe like Glenn Greenwald like my colleagues at Public and and to some extent myself Because that was my history as well you Start to sort of see well we start to Sympathize more with the Anti-interventionist of nationalism and Populism so you start to see that now I Guess you know to some extent you're Always going to have leaders and you're Always going to have folks that are Educated and providing some of that Leadership but I think I think maybe the Better way to think of it is that really The professional managerial class ends Up on the left much more strongly than I Think it did before 2016 you know Mike I Am fascinated by guys like Glenn Greenwald and Matt taiii and yourself um Who were I can't speak to you and Matt And I've have had our own conversations And I've talked to Glenn as well who Weren't just men of the left but would Were um reliable Celebrated I do not think they would Have even been self-described as Centrist left prior to the last five Some odd years and and again I I I I'm Not I think I'm not as familiar with Your entire um resume Mike in terms of Where your ideological bent has been Throughout your career but I do think

It's fair to say you were probably and You just said to us probably someone who Had been self-described on the left what Is it that's changed like for them for You why are you now seeing yourself Distinct from whatever is happening to The left Yeah great question yeah I mean all of Us have different slightly different Trajectories I think Glenn and Matt are Probably a little bit more similar I was Already becoming more moderate around Environmental issues because I supported Things like fracking and nuclear power Uh on homelessness I support uh you know Mandating psychiatric care and Rehab to People who break the law as an Alternative to to jail as opposed to the Much more libertarian radical left uh Policies of the West Coast and that's What San Francisco is about but I Definitely I've always I've always been Very skeptical and critical of US Military interventions abroad I was Against the invasion of Iraq against the You know uh the long-term occupation of Of Afghanistan many of those other Interventions have been opposed to not Always opposed not newerk but certainly Skeptical of those interventions so I Think all of those things um Participated in it I think all of us and This would go also I think for Elon Musk And many of the rest of us that are more

Gen X left um was that really did not we Do not like uh we do not like wokeism You know we don't like the the you know I was I just had a conversation about This I think a lot of Millennials don't Know what it was like in the 80s and 90s In the 80s and 90s and I don't want to Overly romanticize it but I mean there Was more of a sense of which uh all that Race stuff the Boomers dealt with that You know now you can date people from Different colors and you go to different Parties and you hang out and it's kind Of that we the baggage there's probably Still baggage there but it wasn't Anywhere as intense as it was in the 60s You get to like the 2000s and even Before the rise of social media but the Rise of social media you sort of see it All come back around race and sex and You're like really are we really going To then go and like we're going to go do This again I mean I thought we did that In the late 60s and it ended badly so I Think a bunch of us got turned off by That yeah I genuinely think that is why Elon but Elon bought uh Twitter it was You know people say it was restore Babylon B I think it's kind of a it's a Useful metaphor I think it was really Like it was it's a toxic environment Where somehow it was you know bad to be White bad to be heterosexual you know um Bad to be American it was a very uh

Guilt just a very negative discourse I Think we all know what we're talking About so I think a lot of us returned Off to that because it's not liberal It's not actually we meant by liberal Anyway anyway I know that it's what People call liberal but it's actually Quite illiberal and this idea of Silencing people there's something wrong With you psychologically if you want to Make other people shut up I mean you can Ignore people so this desire to sensor To deplatform to cancel it comes from a Bad place psychologically that I think That you know earlier in the Gen X Period I think we had a more you know Properly liberal view which was like hey That's your thing I don't agree but you Know let's just kind of be more chill About it