Vice Chairman of the America First Policy Institute Center for American Security Fred Fleitz joined the Ben Domenech Podcast to discuss Biden’s handling of critical foreign policy challenges. #FoxNews

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Fred fleif thank you so much for taking The time to join me today great to be Here I want to talk to you about a number of Different issues there was this Excellent you know piece that you wrote Along with Keith Kellogg at National Review responding to a piece uh from John Bolton and we will get into that But right now uh right in front of us in Terms of the uh debate at the on Capitol Hill is this question regarding Tick Tock and I wanted to get your reaction To the kind of debate that we're seeing There Uh it hasn't happened yet but I assume That today the day that we are talking Uh Josh Hawley the senator from Missouri Is going to go down to the floor he will Ask for unanimous consent uh for his Bill his five page Bill introduced by Ken Buck on the house side uh that bans Tick Tock he wants to pass it and it's Going to be objected to I Believe by Iran Paul probably Um Tick Tock is On the devices of millions millions of Americans It's used it's interacted with by them In many ways I'm sure you saw the Hearing that happened with their CEO one That it was widely derided as being a Real you know failure on their part

What's the America First perspective On Tick Tock and how the government Ought to respond to it in a responsible Way that doesn't conflict with our own Constitutional values It's a good question because I don't Think we should propose lightly the idea That that the government should shut Down uh what is basically a a public Forum but in this instance there's Substantial information that a hostile Power is using it to collect data Against the United States to push Propaganda and I think we saw this During the hearing when The Tick Tock CEO when he was asked whether the Chinese Communist party has collected Information or attempted to collect Private information on Americans he said I've seen no evidence of that now the The answer Congress was looking for was Well no or that couldn't happen I can Assure you that didn't happen and and Then he was asked is it true that they Have suppressed information of the Oppression of the uyghurs and the Chinese Communist party and and the Crackdown of Hong Kong and he said no Well those statements just aren't true And I I think frankly that hearing was Such a catastrophe even the liberal Democrats who want to Support Tech even They had to condemn him so I I know Where Senator Paul's coming from and I

Think on this instance this this Software really has to be banned you Know the thing that really frustrates me About this conversation is It's an example of where America's Enemies use our own You know enlightenment-based Freedom-based constitutional based Approach To gain access to our markets and try to Manipulate people in ways that are Really disturbing I mean I'm thinking About this you know more long term it's It's like if we allow Communist China to have this type of Footprint over our media conversation And Tick Tock is a media company let's Be clear about that in terms of their in Terms of the way that they approach Things It's it's totally uh warping the kind of Normal conversation that we would have As Americans This doesn't take place in You know kind of an isolated black box It's our enemies America's enemies and I Do believe China is an enemy not even an Adversary but an enemy Um you know invading us using our uh you Know Freedom loving laws against us in Order to try to manipulate our people And I know at least according to a lot of Social science research manipulating a Lot of our young people in ways that are

Intending to damage us as a society how Do we push back against that without Losing the values that we care very much About that come from the Constitution From our Founders from you know the idea That we ought to have free speech in America Well I think we have to aggressively put Forward the case that uh platforms like This really are a threat to the security Of our country and also make the point That this platform is available in China In a very censored form a very measured Form that promotes China promotes Education children can't be honored for Very long and all these platforms like Fox News and CNN and Twitter they're not Available in China everything is Censored they don't have the ability to To go online to see what's going on in The rest of the world yet the Chinese Communist Party freely manipulates and Takes advantage of the western media to Undermine our security and freedom and To promote China and look the Iranians Do this the Russians do this our enemies Know we have a free system they're happy To use it but they won't duplicate it at Home So uh Fred you wrote what I thought was A very excellent response uh to uh Ambassador Bolton uh you know obviously You know someone who I have my own Gripes with in terms of his policy

Perspective at National Review pushing Back against the idea that An America First approach to foreign Policy under President Trump was Something that actually diminished us as A nation Personally I think that you know the Foreign policy uh shift that has Happened is one of the most beneficial Things that has come out of the last Decade within uh you know Republican Circles the circles of the right Etc you Know I am very much opposed to the idea Of utopianism as being animating force Of our designs on the Middle East for Example Tell me a little bit about what you Think is going on there There is this foreign policy blob that You know absorbs so much of the Washington conversation and You know uh efforts so much a Diminishment of anyone who wants to Criticize its obvious failures you have Been on the receiving end of that I know Uh so tell me a little bit about what You think is actually going on there and Why uh the you know the country and the Frustrations with its shift are Something that is animating uh this uh This blob and kind of striking back and Trying to reassert itself as being a Dominant Force within the you know Overall and uh scheme of the right

Well I want to give Rich Lowery Nash Review a lot of credit they have run Articles that have said that the America First approached the National Security Is isolationism it's similar to the Pre-World War II isolationists under uh Charles Lindbergh to keep the us out of War but then they allow General Kellogg And I run this piece which I think was a Strong rebuttal to that America First The America First approach to National Security has transformed thinking of National Security not just among Conservatives but among all Americans And this is what it is Strong presidential leadership a strong Military but The Prudent use of military Force to keep us out of unnecessary Wars And only use military force when our Strategic interests are at risk it's not Isolationism it's not America alone it Is working with allies but it also Insists that our allies carry their Weight in defending their regions now Ambassador Bolton I've known him a long Time he's a great guy but he has Repeated what we're hearing from The Blob on the right and left that America First is isolationism that we know President Trump isn't in isolation we Know he worked with our eyes around the World but he was tough with them frankly NATO is stronger today because president Trump pressed it so hard uh to to get up

To the amount of money it's supposed to Spend on its own defense and look at the Close relationship that President Trump Had with the Japanese uh prime minister The relationship he had with the the the The South Korean president was a little Bit Rocky but I think it was still Productive uh so I I just think that It's easy to rebut this but we have to Work hard because the left and well the Well let's say The Blob is Relentless And misrepresenting this approach to National Security well let's let's talk About that for a minute because I remember getting into an argument with Daniel pletka the uh vice president at a Uh Norwell over over uh this issue back In I believe 2015 when it was not at all Clear that Donald Trump was going to Become the nominee where she was Alleging lindberghism on the part of Ted Cruz who was someone who was I I was Advocating for at the time because I was You know I believe that you know his Approach to foreign policy of saying you Know look these these wars of utopian You know Vision were wrong and we need To you know readjust our our foreign Policy accordingly and the the arguments That were being Advanced were basically That anything that does not match up With what the blob wants what they Believe is the the Apex goal They just immediately uh malign it as

Being isolationism Neville Chamberlain Uh Charles Lindbergh Etc How do you push back against that Because It's it's ridiculous it's in the same Sense that they uh you know place every World leader that they have objection to As Hitler I'm not saying Vladimir Putin Is good I'm just saying he's not Hitler You know it's it's not he doesn't have Camps where he is literally burning Jews You know it's it's one of these things Where can we can we have a conversation About foreign policy that actually Balances this these things without uh Sort of sweeping very quickly into these World War II analogs that don't bear any Representation of the actual position of The person involved I think one of the most telling things We heard during the Biden presidency on His National Security strategy was he When he went to Europe and French President macron welcomed him back to The European Club well you know President Trump's approach to NAS Security rejected that he rejected European Club the United Nations these Global elitists these globalists who Would like to see the U.S sign treaties Like the Paris climate Accord and other Agreements that are great for the Globals they're great for other Countries but they're bad for the

American worker they're bad for our Economy they're bad for our country we Can't be using our troops for nation Building any longer or to change Governments we have problems here at Home and I think that's a message that's Going to resonate the elitist will never Believe that they're going to keep Throwing isolations around but look we Have so many good examples of why this Works and what the American people want So look Danielle plutka I love her she's Great I've known her a long time but on This issue I just think she's dead wrong I think that there's so many people Who don't understand The nature of why we have the foreign Policies that we do They believe that you know sort of it Seems like it's at a remove from the People that they elect they try to elect People who will push back against that Foreign policy blob But then you know they feel like they Either get compromised or you know there Are other influences at Play How could we shift to a foreign policy That is more representative of the American people and their interests Well let's talk about uh Trump's Decision to move the U.S embassy to Jerusalem now lots of presidents have Said they're going to do that but once Again into office

Eisenhower I think even you know like Let's say everybody Start a war with with the IRS that's Just off the table and that's the Elitist position that's the globalist Position that is the establishment Position and president Trump said no and I think whoever is present 2025 and I Hope it is not Joe Biden it's going to Be an America first president who's not Going to defer to The Establishment Globalists who won't do the right thing Because it's the way we always did it or Because the establishment thinks we Should do something else that was a very Good move and every expert every Established expert I know said that that Was going to result in war or terrorism It didn't happen It was amazing how much it didn't happen In the sense that they they predicted it Just solidly it's obvious there's going To be massive backlash to this and then None of it happened and it was like well Maybe you should question your priors if Something like this goes down and you Don't have the result that you're Expecting I am very concerned as I'm sure you are About the ramifications Of the increased aggressiveness of China Toward Taiwan How can we properly support them in this Moment

How can we also make sure that China is Reluctant to engage in the kind of Activity that it's telegraphing And you know make sure that Taiwan knows They will also have to do this for Themselves in a certain sense this is Not something where Americans are ripe to put our troops on The ground or American lives at stake to Defend an island that they really don't Know about But clearly the idea that China is going To you know control ultimately you know The shipping lanes the the transfer of Products around the globe the You know ability that they would have if They took Taiwan would be very much to The detriment of America and the West What should we be doing right now You know it's it's really astounding to See how much more unstable the world is Right now than it was two years ago and That's because of this Administration It's because of President Biden's Weakness his unserious foreign policy That makes climate change the main Priority did you hear John Kerry say the Other day we have the Chinese and the Russians to talk about climate change Well I think there's some other things Going on in the world right now uh you Know Putin putting tactical nuclear Weapons of Belarus what's going on with Taiwan but China you know China's been

An existential threat for a long time It's so much worse now because it's Seasoned opportunity it sees a weak American president it sees an unserious Foreign policy and that's why it has Stepped up its threats to Taiwan and it Worries me that there could be an attack Before this president leaves office Right now experts tell me that China Probably couldn't Prevail in such an Invasion we have to give Taiwan the Weapons it needs to hold off the Chinese So they'll think twice before going but The ends the ultimate solution is we Have to have a competent president with A strong America First foreign policy And we're going to have some dangerous Times until we get one Let's talk about Ukraine for a moment The the situation there is one that I Think Has unfortunately Been colored uh in an accurate way in American uh political Dynamics You know first off I would say I agree With everyone who says We shouldn't be giving them a blank Check you know this is not a situation Where we should be sending them money Without understanding where it's going Number two though I actually like proxy wars you've read You're you're allowed to disagree with Me here proxy wars where Americans don't

Die but where we're paying for something That actually diminishes an adversary From my perspective at least is a good Thing But I don't believe that we have the Wherewithal within this Administration Or the understanding of the Russians Within this Administration to bring this To a close in a way that would be Beneficial for the West for the European Union for everyone involved What should we be doing differently to Get to that point because I think most Americans democrat or republican or they Have skepticism about Ukraine or not They want to get to the point where we End this war and they don't want to see A point where that involves Vladimir Putin and the Russians just Running roughshod [Music] I said earlier what an America First Approach to National Security is and not Putting our troops at risk I don't think An endless proxy war is consistent with An America First approach of NASA Security we're running down our military Arsenal we're creating a situation that Could lead to escalation it could lead To the use of nuclear nuclear weapons I I support uh giving Ukraine the weapons It needs right now to stop a Russian Offensive to push them back pressure uh Putin to come to to to the negotiating

Table but realistically I don't think Ukraine's going to get back most of its Territory I wish that wasn't the case I'd like to see a ceasefire and we will Discuss the the territorial issues over Time but I think Ukraine will lose a Protracted uh War of Attrition I think That's where Europe is going and it Worries me right now that this Administration won't even talk about a Ceasefire it won't put forward a peace Plan its solution is simply throw Weapons there endlessly thinking somehow That will allow Ukraine to win that is Not going to work Do you believe that we need to Dramatically Step Up The creation of Munitions that Apparently have been you know just Boiled through when it comes to this Ukraine conflict in a way that Apparently seems to have been unexpected No absolutely and there's there are many Uh instances of that there's concerns That that missiles that we want to send To Taiwan aren't available right now They're not available for our use if we Had to use them somewhere uh and I mean These are complicated there's Advanced Electronics in these missiles so yeah That's if that hasn't been done I hope That starts soon Fred I know you're someone who takes American foreign policy very seriously

It's the focus of your career it's what You've worked on I personally feel like American foreign Policy especially on the right Uh has been Relatively out of touch since the end of The Cold War they don't really know kind Of how to adjudicate the different Challenges that they're dealing with I worry that when it comes to the Concerns that we're facing over the Coming decade That they're ill-prepared for it I'm curious whether you agree with me on That I'm also curious Do you believe that a kind of a Redefinition Of the America First goals Could be something that could change That in a positive way to say look at Every issue at every point We need to be putting the interests of Americans first And not some fly-by-night you know Assumptions about the way that we could Change the world I watch with frustration during the Trump Administration to see the President had great policies but he Didn't name people who would Implement Them and we saw Rex Tillerson and H.R McMaster they were terrible they didn't Want to implement the president's policy They didn't want to move the U.S embassy

To Jerusalem they opposed the president On getting rid of the nuclear deal with Iran but at the lower levels of the State department and can I just suggest I I just to interject I have enormous respect for HR I don't Have that same respect for iraqs but the Point is that like they they were Opposed to something that definitively Worked when you did it so it like that That's kind of the proof of saying you Know well maybe you should reevaluate Your priorities I have respect for hr2 He came into office opposing things that The president he was going to serve Wanted to do yeah so he shouldn't have Taken the job I think there's a lot of People I I understand that yeah but this Is a bigger problem at lower levels of The state department uh the defense Department the National Security Council We didn't bring in people who were Prepared to implement the president's Policies and the permanent bureaucracy We didn't get control of so the America First policy Institute we have an Aggressive program right now to get the People ready to staff the next Administration on day one we're even Talking about how can people get cleared Quickly what documents will they need to Get a security clearance how can they Get through Senate confirmation Fred you gotta nuke the bureaucracy from

Orbit it's the only way to be sure No I I completely understand what you're Saying I just my frustration is this I I you know sort of got into the Conservative movement at the end of the 90s And uh and came up with you know Obviously I was a a you know worked in The speech writing office from George W Bush you know uh worked for John cornyn The speechwriter you know was was uh Aware of all of this And the concern that I have is that we Are still Seeing the the cement of these people Who were early adopters of a neocon Agenda yes in the early 2000s they still Are here they are still tops of the list For advisors uh for various people and It's like no you you got these things Wrong like I just definitively whatever You you think of in terms of whatever Other direction we ought to go you got These things wrong So How do we change that how do we make Sure that that the next president I mean I don't know who I don't know who it's going to be but You know I I am very concerned that we Don't have the kind of people you know Ready organized prepared to deal with The world the dangers that it uh Includes the challenges that it includes

In a responsible way And instead we're just going to default To well they used to be in this job Which you know obviously includes the John Bolton someone who you were Responding to in your piece I think there's a set of people in Washington a set of conservatives they Serve in government they they work with The establishment go native when they're Out of government they keep their head Down they would never go in your program Because they don't want to have a Written record they don't want people to Know what they stand for they go back in Government and they repeat the same Thing all over again the wonderful thing About the never Trump letters is that a Lot of these people signed them and that Kept them out of government so actually The Trump Administration was not as bad As it might have been in terms of Personnel because some of these people No matter who they knew no matter which Senator they played golf with they just Couldn't get in because they signed an Ever Trump letter afpi's American Leadership initiative is looking for Good America first people to do what you Just said to push America First policies And try to weed out these people who've Been part of the problem and come back Republican Administration after Republican Administration and simply

Pushed the same old same old Establishment approach well let me give You one more example of that I think That one thing that the neoconservatives Were very good at Uh in the early 2000s was credentialing The idea that they would sort of take Someone who hadn't really done that much But then they would build them up with Awards fellowships articles you know it Would be the sort of thing where wait a Minute why is this person in this senior Position when they haven't actually you Know done anything really and it would Turn out to be well they wrote this book They got this Fellowship they got this Opportunity and they ended up in this Position for that reason I feel like the America First approach One which says we know we are not Interested in risking American blood and Treasure for foolish situations but we Do believe in a robust American approach When it comes to military use and trade That projects our power around the world And that you know Balances back against communist China And uh and their allies you know I think That's something where we really need More of that credentialing or that kind Of of uh promotion the the fellowships The the kind of uh relationships that Will allow such people to proceed Within These various you know government jobs

Where those types of things that don't Matter anywhere else matter Well as you know it's hard being a Conservative all these cushy fellowships And and and and uh research grants They're all available to to the neocons And people on the left they go to Harvard's JFK they get positions with The Ford Foundation they're with the Council Foreign Relations those people Won't hire me they would not hire you no I mean we have to break these positions But they're not there right now and That's why we need organizations like Like afpi and Heritage to try to find The good names of people who haven't who Haven't had a fellowship at Harvard that That doesn't mean you know what you're Talking about just that just means yes Just means the establishment likes you And you get them in the government Because these people are lining up They're getting their they're getting Their contacts with the Senate so they Can get quickly confirmed and um but I'll tell you I think afpi is wise to This and I'm hoping we can make a Difference on it last question for you Fred You know I I look back at sort of the History of Republican foreign policy And I try to find different people who Are you know uh interesting thinkers People who have you know perspectives on

Things that are not you know necessarily What you would expect I'm curious if you have any Recommendation for my listeners of People they ought to read books they Ought to read more people they ought to Look at as being examples of the kind of Foreign policy that we ought to pursue In America as opposed to the one that Has been dominated by the neocons under George W bush The Blob under Barack Obama you know and again the recurrent JV version of The Blob under Joe Biden Um what should they look to what book Should they read what counsel should They seek in order to find the kind of Path that we ought to have here in America you know the the man I recommend Is General Keith kellock he's he's the Co-chair of afpi Center for American Security I work with him and I knew him When I was in the Trump Administration But I've really come to admire him his Level-headed approach to the war in Ukraine and I think as as a three-star General for him to Advocate what America First means and look if if you're a General you know a war means you don't Want unnecessary Wars you want to keep Us out of Wars to hear him argue this he Wrote a great Memoir on his time in the White house I would advise your your Listeners and readers to to to check it Out uh he he would be uh the guy I'd

Recommend they they look into Fred thank you so much for taking the Time to join me today it's always a Pleasure to talk to you great to be here Thanks