The hunt for the Beltway Snipers | The FOX True Crime Podcast

The hunt for the Beltway Snipers | The FOX True Crime Podcast

Retired U.S. Marshal Bill Sorukas joins Emily Compagno to discuss how he became involved in the Beltway Sniper case, the sensitivity of the investigation, and how he was able to track down the shooters. #FoxNews #TrueCrime

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You were that agent that identified them Um despite Sort of Doubt potentially uh and some Pressure from other organizations Otherwise so it's such a pleasure to Have you here with me today Bill and Let's start with Um your initiation into law enforcement And what made you uniquely suited for This particular fugitive case Well at an early age my father became an Indiana State Trooper so I was Surrounded by law enforcement from about The age of five until I got out of College and within a short time of Graduating from Indiana State he had Approached me about working undercover So I went from college back to high School Uh where I was a high school student in Laporte Indiana Um with the purpose of identifying Locations and individuals that were Trafficking in the sale of controlled Substances in that High School During that time the state of Indiana Hired me as a police officer and then a Couple of years later I had an Opportunity through a case that I worked In Indiana To meet some of the people from The Marshall service and within about two to Three months from beginning to end of The process I became a deputy U.S

Marshal in 1986. One of my favorite anecdotes of yours Bill is your story about how you showed Up to a U.S Secret Service interview While you were undercover at this High School can you tell that yeah I I had uh Taken the treasury exam the day that I Left Indiana State University drove to Indianapolis took the treasury exam for The Secret Service And so the interview followed a number Of months later at that particular time I was still working at the high school And the the long hair that I had Um and that type of persona I really Couldn't get rid of at that point so I Went for the interview and I I knew the Minute that I walked in and the guy Looked at me that uh this wasn't going To be a successful interview I tried to Explain to him what I was doing and I'm Sure if he read my application he knew But I knew at that point that I did not Have a future in the Secret Service Picturing sort of a 21 Jump Street uh Looking character uh in in front of the US Secret Service there in that Interview Um and so now you are a United States Marshal and what case did you work on in 1987 that sort of sparked and was the Genesis for your your ultimate fugitive Experience you know within the Marshall Service there's a lot of different

Responsibilities the agency was formed To provide for the Integrity of the U.S Court system when George Washington Became president so that is the primary Function uh today as it was in 1789 when He created the U.S Marshals But there are varying functions and Responsibilities that have grown over The years fugitive apprehension asset Seizure the witness protection program The movement of federal prisoners There's really a place for a lot of Different people in the agency within a Very short period of time once I was Assigned to the San Diego office there Was a case there by the name of Thomas Hercules pepinos who was a uh Entrepreneur at that time in the Development of methamphetamine in the Process for manufacturing it and he had Been indicted in the early 1980s in San Diego and he along with all of his Co-conspirators Many of them had fled so our chief at The time Bob daguerra he wanted to form A local task force pepinos had gone on To our Nationwide most wanted list and He wanted to make the effort to Apprehend him after a number of years of Really nothing happening with the case And I was one of the people selected to Be on that that small group of four People basically uh to work that case And what ultimately did you discover in

The file and what events transpire that Led to your identification and Ultimately bringing him in yeah it had Been it was a large file it took me Weeks and maybe even months to go Through the whole thing that had taken Place over many years but within the File I found a a name in there of Thomas Peter duselle that was supposedly an Alias that pepinos was using nobody Working the case uh during that time or Previously could tell me where that Information came from so I kind of took It and ran with it and I found a California driver's license and I Ordered it up and when I got the Photograph and the right thumb print Back Um I thought it was definitely Tom Pepino's Based on the previous pictures that we Had uh the peop the one of the other People working the case did not think so And so we went to the right thumbprint And compared it with the known Fingerprints of pepinos and the guy said It's not him So I still thought it was I was Convinced of it just by the the Photograph itself so I went to a friend Uh over at the FBI they were located in The Federal Building in San Diego at the Time I went over there and I said teach Me how to refingerprints quick I need I

Need to understand this I had had some Courses previously at the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy and at the federal Law enforcement training center but Nothing really in depth Um so he handed me a book And he said hey here you go and uh I Taught myself how to read fingerprints And in the next couple of weeks I Figured out that when pepinos who was Using the name of duselle had provided His right thumbprint he had turned it 180 degrees Um in the in a abnormal way of providing It at that time and I had uh identified All of the minutia and characteristics Within that and I was able to convince The guys I was working with that it was In fact Tom pepinos that was using that Name from there it was Um a simple interview in Portland Oregon By one of our inspectors uh with some of The the things that we found connected To the name do cell And we had information that Tom papinos And his co-defendant wife and another Individual that was on the indictment Were all in Bullhead City Arizona and Within a couple of days they were all Three in custody uh in Bullhead City Arizona and and I flew to Arizona and Brought them back once they were removed To San Diego Well

Interesting parallels that we will see Emerge in the Beltway snipers case as Well of your gut feeling mixed with an Incredible detailed assessment of facts And evidence that led to a conclusion That you had to sort of convince others Of that ultimately was absolutely Correct so Bill Let's now go to 2002 and Let's talk about the Beltway snipers Case and the events that transpired Okay Where would you like to start Um well I think let's start with the Federal involvement into it and Essentially your introduction and your Entree into that case Yeah it was uh Friday October 4th and we Had gotten a call from the Montgomery County Police they had worked with a Fugitive task force in the Washington DC Area they were familiar with our Technical expertise And they were asking us uh if we could Come up for a meeting so three of us Traveled to Rockville and we were Briefed by a commander there on the Spate of shootings that happened the Previous day where five people were Killed in Montgomery County and one was Killed over just across the line in Washington DC as well Um Based on all of that and the briefing That we got we agreed to take the

Information back and look at some Technical things that we could do Including working with the Maryland Department of Transportation Virginia Department of Transportation for uh Freeway cameras uh breaking all that Information down Gathering as much video as we could Doing some Kind of unique things Um cellular or digital wise that we had Become familiar with a year earlier During our time at Ground Zero in New York while we were supporting the New York police department and trying to Find survivors in the debris field at Ground Zero we had worked with a group There called the wireless emergency Response team Where we had done some kind of unique Applications to identify active cell Phones in that debris field And we use that Those Technologies and those Applications as we're now moving forward In the in the sniper investigation So when when after we had that meeting We all went back to Springfield and Within a very short period of time We had heard of another shooting in the Fredericksburg area whether or not it Was connected with these shootings most People thought no probably not because Of the distance when all the other

Shootings that had happened the previous Two days actually uh October 2nd and October 3rd they were all Centered within a small area up in Montgomery County and just across the Line into Washington DC So but we heard uh pretty soon after Maybe 5 30 6 o'clock that it was indeed Connected to the sniper killings that Have been connected ballistically uh Through ATF The woman that was shot there her name Was Carolyn seawell she survived the Shooting and the bullet went through her And went into the dashboard of her car So we had the projectile from that we Had projectiles from uh some of the Previous shootings as well that Walter Dandridge from the ATF was able to make A comparison with and identify all those Projectiles is coming from the same Weapon And what was the turnaround time of that Forensic analysis how soon after that Fredericksburg shooting was that ATF Agent who was instrumental on Determining the that kind of High-powered rifle and the connection How soon was he able to make that Conclusion for that particular shooting Uh it was late late afternoon early Evening on the Friday the 4th Um I remember I had met Walter Dandridge The previous day I believe

Um Uh or that afternoon uh he he was Already examining projectiles that had Been recovered from the Montgomery Shootings on the third so uh he did he Was a an incredible asset to this and a Critical piece to it and I consider him A hero Um in this case he was able to link These shootings very quickly Um because there were shootings that Were happening they were not connected To this as well many he probably Examined more of those that were not Connected than were actually connected To the sniper shooting so he did a Fantastic job and and kept the momentum Going with where we knew these shootings Were happening that were all connected Ballistically to the same uh weapon So the federal government or the federal Agencies had been invited in uh so now There's a constellation and a joint Operations Command Center From which everyone was operating and Then we had the scope being determined Of how prolific these shootings and Murders were occurring as well that sort Of Randomness so tell us what happened Next Well we start we started bringing people Into the area from our fugitive task Forces across the the country from New York and from Los Angeles we had a

Regional fugitive task force in Washington D.C that was already working That plus our offices in Virginia and Washington DC and and Maryland were all Involved we had hundreds and hundreds of People we also brought in some Specialists for from our electronic Surveillance unit Um that were that were very versed in Tracking Communications so we just Continued to monitor everything look at Things that we could help with and Support the investigation and then Everything changed um on October 7th When Iran Brown was shot uh outside of Tasker Middle School in Bowie Maryland There had been a a statement from the Police chief uh over the weekend that Children are safe And obviously the the snipers were Listening at that because they took Advantage of that statement and and shot Iran Brown outside of his school That was another critical part not only Did it elevate the investigation now That a child had been shot but It also provided some hard evidence Um the the one of the assets that the Marshall service was able to provide That day was a uh explosive detection Canine uh by the name of Beacon uh he And his Handler Mike Pio Mike had Developed the canine program within the Agency primarily to support you know

Judicial security and courthouses and in Special events and um he brought his dog Out that day and and the the initial Search that Mike and Beacon did did not Turn up anything but Mike had been in The military he went to where the Backpack was where Iran Brown had been Shot and he started to look around for Vantage points of where someone could Have shot from and he noticed a place Just to the north a wooded area to the North and as he and Beacon Examine that area uh Beacon alerted to An area that appeared to be matted down Where a person was sitting or lying down For a long period of time and it was Shortly after that where a shell casing From a rifle was found and then they Brought in more Searchers they brought In Cadets from the training academy and They were able to locate a tarot card at The time it was described to me as just A death car and I really wasn't sure What they were saying but um and I Didn't physically see it it had been Taken into evidence and there was a lot Of possibility as far as forensic data That was that might be available there There was handwriting on it uh there was Potential DNA on it we now had a shell Casing that would help us identify the Weapon and it was being held very Closely there was a message on it not to Release to the Press but it it was it

Got out that night and the next morning That that evening on the news and early The next day in the Washington Post Although the statement that was provided In those news reports was the the Language was was not accurate with what It was on the card So given that The fact that there was a leak when There was explicit construction Directions not to uh engage with media In that way and also the fact that it Was wrong did did that tell you that the Leaker was not a member of law Enforcement that somehow had heard it Firsthand or secondhand or somehow Overheard something because it was Inaccurate and who would risk the Integrity of the investigation by Leaking in the first place yeah I have a Feeling that it was someone within law Enforcement but someone that didn't see The the document itself because they Because of the the wording that was was Incorrectly provided to the Press but There were so many agencies and and so Many Um law enforcement Representatives Involved at this point it had to come From law enforcement but I really wasn't concerned about it you Know I took it for what the value was to To us as investigators and just tried to Move forward with it um I did some

Research on on tarot cards and and what They meant and tried to understand it a Little bit better to to maybe give me an Indication of who the person was behind This So Bill tell us at that point in time of The investigation was there a profile And what or who exactly was the public Looking for because it's my Understanding there was not yet a Conclusive evidence that there were two So now we use the word snipers plural But at that point in the investigation We thought there was just one Yeah we were proceeding that there was a It was a single individual at that time Um The Uh information on the tarot card uh said I am God Or call me God So that would indicate a singular person We would we would later change our our Outlook on that but there was a profile Being developed by the FBI at that time And that process would continue Um throughout the entire investigation It would change as more information and More evidence was developed there was Both a suspect profile being developed In a geographic profile being developed About where the person may strike next Based on the other shootings And the profile that was being put out

There was that it was probably a white Male in his late 20s early 30s he may Have recently had a a relationship issue A divorce or a Separation from a loved one Maybe a military person Um white male Um so that's what we're proceeding with And There was also the issue of uh one of The witnesses at the Montgomery series Of shootings on the third had observed a Utility truck a white box truck or a van So that was being looked at as a as a Serious piece of information and that Was put out to the media as well so now Every shooting that took place Um people were seeing white Vans and White box trucks and utility trucks Everywhere and and once you started Looking for them you understood that During a normal business day in Washington DC area there are thousands And thousands of those around the area And so after Monday October 7th changed Everything as you said Um with the investigation developing Then the shooters one of them actually Called in to 9-1-1 can you sure about That yeah they could they called into Rockville uh police department on I Believe October 15th Um and that was answered by a dispatcher Who we actually have that audio bill so

Let's play it and then we'll get your Reaction on the other side Important Don't pray He said call me God Do not really depressed You have called me three times before Trying to create negotiations You like the number Yes so that call came in on the 15th but We wouldn't become aware of that until I Believe the 19th Um and the way we became aware of it was When there was a shooting at the Ponderosa Steakhouse in Ashland Virginia Uh investigators found a Um like a freezer bag tacked to a tree Near where the shooter had been Positioned when he shot one of the Patrons as he exited the the restaurant They found a shell casing there as well And but inside that um Inside that that package was a four-page Note and it had a number of different uh Telephone numbers and individuals that Had uh been attempted to be contacted by The snipers including CNN uh Rockville Police Department uh I think they all Identified an officer Derek uh which was Derek belisles who took two calls from The snipers as well but that note gave Us at the electronic surveillance unit The foundation for what we needed to put Together and start investigating the

Origin of these calls we now that we Knew where they terminated we could make A really good effort at determining Where they originated and how they were Processed was it done through a computer Was it done through a calling card uh Was it done with coins was it from a Hard line Um we found that all the calls were were Made using coin phones at that time Um But that letter provided us with the Foundation to really establish how they Were communicating uh from around the Area I have to admit I'm obviously without Any law enforcement experience but it's Sort of hard to hear that call because What I'm hearing potentially is someone Maybe not taking the caller seriously And what I'm hearing is someone a Shooter who is saying I am responsible For these shootings and then the the Dispatcher is saying please call this Hotline so upon analysis of the case in Retrospect Um were was there any assessment of that Call or the fact that the shooters had Called multiple times without a Substantive response Yeah and I think it was complicated by The fact that uh calls were coming into The FBI hotline to America's Most Wanted To police departments uh in the area to

A a priest in Ashland Virginia Um There were many people claiming to be The shooters So you know which one do you take Seriously which one do you not take Seriously which one do you pursue which One do you not pursue Um Gathering all those tips all that Information you do your best uh to take What's in the call and evaluate what you Can if it's a call saying that I saw the Shooter a week ago at you know the 7-Eleven in this city there's really not Much you can do other than maybe grab Video from that but a person that's Calling saying I am the shooter I am the Sniper they were getting a lot of calls At every one of those hotlines so I Didn't think it was that unusual that You know I wish he had handled it a Little differently Um and passed it directly to Um maybe a sergeant or a lieutenant or To the task force directly But in the end it helped us figure out Where they were standing when they made That call Tell us about that That call was made from a Texaco station In Woodbridge Virginia Um no knowing what time and to what Number it terminated it was simple for For us to figure out where it originated

We knew that at that point that it was Processed using coins Um which helps us out a lot because if a Person's using a calling card eventually That's going to run out and they're Going to get another one and it's going To take you a few days to catch up or if They're using a cell phone and they make Two calls and throw it in the Potomac And get a new one it's going to take you A few more days to catch up to that but They were using coins every time so we Were developing now a mapping element That was showing us where they were when They were making all of these calls and We were not only looking at for that one Specific call we would examine calls That were made two hours before the Known call in two hours afterwards did They only make one call while they were There or did they did you know the Caller call or relative beforehand or After Using you know the same method just to Let somebody know they're okay but it Provided a road map for us of where they Were at specific times and dates and Then we could go out and try to get Video from some of those commercial Areas we did not find any as I recall at Any of the locations Maybe that's an indication that they They did their homework and chose places That didn't have cameras I can't say

That for sure but um it seems kind of Um conspicuous that of all the calls They made none of them were captured on Video So at that time these these pivotal Moments Um and pivotal shootings where the Killers were leaving more and more clues That plastic bag with all the lists Enabled you to determine that 9-1-1 call Had occurred in addition to two others You then were able to trace the Origination of that to this Texaco Station so describe for us the pace as Things were it sounds heating up and you Were gleaning more and more information Was this leading you closer to Identifying them or was it just Accumulating that evidence at a faster Pace but you were still Searching for who they were yeah we're Well we're still trying to identify them But every piece of information that we Were getting that was Um connected to the shootings or the Phone calls was was leading Us in that Direction uh I I think everybody was Pretty confident that we we were heading In the right direction with the the Phone calls itself and other information That was in that uh that Ashland letter There was a reference in there to a call To a priest we were able to identify That priest he was interviewed and he

Provided Some quite specific information about The two people that were on the phone With him One older one younger one with an accent Um he knew about the shootings but he Didn't report it to the police and until We got there and did the interview so That along with all of the calling data And the information in the Ashland Letter where they were demanding 10 Million dollars to be deposited into an Account Um we we worked on that we had a Financial surveillance unit that we Activated for that they looked into that Information and found that that credit Card had been stolen from a woman in Arizona that she was a bus driver and When she had returned from one of her Trips she noticed that her credit card Was gone Um we found that that card had been uh Attempted to be used in Washington state For a 12 gasoline purchase so now we had A connection to Washington but but what Did we have there was something there But we didn't know what at that time So we just kept digging I think at the Marshall service Um it was a bit more frantic than Probably other places but there's also An element that's still chasing down Every shooting that's happening and they

Seem to happen in new jurisdictions Every single time in Fairfax and in Prince William County Spotsylvania Manassas Um it brought in new agencies every Single time and the more agencies you Have in something like this it can get Complicated because each one of those Agencies have a responsibility to Investigate that particular matter so That all of the information doesn't Necessarily get shared to the other Seven or eight uh locations where these Shootings have happened And the public at that time there was an Increasing heightened level of abject Fear as well that was sweeping Across The Nation and certainly in the DMV area With the increase and and um you know With it All of the shootings that were happening Well we were only a year removed from The events of 9 11. So that fear of something else happening Was always there and I think the initial Theory that everyone was looking at was This is another Attempt at terrorizing the United States A well-organized one at that you know Where people aren't leaving many clues Or you know about these shootings It got to the point where they thought It was related to the 911 events so much That prisoners or detainees at

Guantanamo Bay were interviewed about Any potential knowledge they may have About plans to conduct shootings in the Washington DC area Just the images on National media of People hiding at the gas pump and Running to their cars with groceries I Mean it was a it impacted the lives and The lifestyles of millions of people Yeah there were there were no Um athletic events for students they Weren't let out at at lunchtime to play Um Outdoor dining was non-existent Um in the area the gas stations were a Place of fear people would I had heard Stories where people would drive 20 to 30 miles away from 95 to get gas because 95 was looked at as the corridor where Most of these were happening Um but there there was a real fear in The area everybody talked about it Everybody knew about it Um and everybody felt it yeah So as the investigation continued what Happened next Based on the call into one of the calls Into Derek belisle's at Montgomery County and the information in in that Ashland letter We were now beginning to look at Multiple people being involved there Were references in that letter to things That were plural we

Um And we we knew at that point based on The pastor statements Um and everything that was developing That we were probably dealing with two People but why and and and what has Brought them to Washington D.C that was The question Um and what can we do to better respond To these shootings quicker so there was A strategy developed where when a Shooting happened because of the Proximity to Interstate 95 Um Freeways were shut down the minute that A shooting happened that we thought was Connected to the the sniper shootings The freeways were shut down and I Happened to be at The Mixing Bowl area Where 395 495 and 95 all come together Near Springfield Virginia Um the day that Um there was a shooting in Massaponax Area at a gas station there I've never seen traffic like that in my Life I mean traffic was backed up for 70 Miles to Richmond and and up into Um Maryland uh to the East and and north And all the way up to Virginia on the West side of 95. I've never seen Anything like it before except Um the morning of 9 11 when Um people were trying to get out of Washington DC and we were trying to get

Our unit down into Washington DC Um that's the only comparable thing that I've ever seen but but we were we were Trying to notice anything we could we Figured that they were mobile Um still looking for this white vehicle Although most people in law enforcement At this point you know uh a week 10 days Into this We felt pretty confident that every White utility vehicle in you know a 500 Mile radius had been stopped and Examined and identified at this point You could just drive down 95 and use you Know for 10 miles and you'd see three of Them pulled over So there was a log being kept of all Those vehicles that were being stopped And I think we were all convinced maybe This isn't good information at this Point because we would have had it by Now we've we felt Um so collectively taking all that Information the pastors information The Ashland letter I'd had a conversation with two Investigators from our fugitive task Force in New York Vinnie senzamichi who Was a state parole officer assigned to Our task force and Lenny DePaul who was An inspector assigned to our task force And we were having a conversation about My notes that I had made about the Ashland letter I had a chance to review

It I couldn't I couldn't make a copy and They weren't willing to fax it so I had To write it down and replicate what that Looked like and the phone numbers that Were in it and everything as quickly as I could at the command post in Montgomery County Um So we were having a conversation and and Vinnie sends Amici said you know this Looks like it has some Jamaican stuff Connected to it he had investigated Jamaican gangs in New York and he felt Pretty strongly that there were some Jamaican Um overtones to it uh the word is bond Message the five stars Um And as we started looking into it and Looking at what the pastor had said About the accent Um it continued to move in that Direction that you know maybe there is a Jamaican connection here So Shortly after that one of the things That happened was the the letter is Discovered tacked to the tree late that Evening on a Saturday night and part of The message is that the the snipers will Be making a phone call into the Ponderosa to negotiate early the next Morning I believe six A.M I I was looking at the letter at

Probably 11 o'clock in the morning As I as I after I copied it as much as I Could down and drove away I was still Looking at my notes and trying to make Sense of it and calling people into the Office and you know to run down some of This stuff I I saw the part in there About the phone call and so I drove back To the command post And I said well what happened with this Call I mean nobody nobody said anything About that and they said well we didn't Open the package until afterwards So the phone at the Ponderosa rang there Were still officers outside they heard It ring but it went on unanswered so it Required Chief moose to go out again and Make another plea to you know those People whoever is responsible at that Point to contact them again And that gave us uh you know a number of Hours to get some electronic Applications in place to capture that Call into the Ponderosa forward that Call to the command post in Montgomery County And be able to record that and do what We could to exploit that we also put Surveillance teams out and the the Natural places to put the surveillance Teams out were were the locations where We had known telephone calls from in the Past So those were all being covered that

Monday morning Um 24 hours later now from when they had Asked for the call but we we've now had Another shot at this or we're hoping to And the call did come in Um early that Monday morning uh it was a It had a introduction to it uh the same Thing that we have become familiar with With Um call me God you know do not release To the Press Um And then it was uh a recording About a 35 second recording So they hung up Um it was less than one minute the Information was provided to uh our Representative at the command post he Turned it around and had the origin of The call very quickly which was again Another gas station very close to the Area where we had surveillance units Um so everybody started to move in Lenny DePaul who had had quite a bit of Experience managing task forces and Things like this for many years he tried To get everybody organized get a Perimeter on the location and kind of Slowly move in and that didn't last very Long because there were so many people Involved in this that people rushed into That lot Um because I saw a white van with two Individuals sitting at a pay phone they

Thought it was the two snipers still on The phone Um I was in Springfield Virginia and Coordinating with the the carrier for The call and the woman on the other end Was telling me that uh she gave me the Number where it originated she said it Was a a 38 second call Total I believe And I gave her the the information about the Phone number where the two individuals In the van were and she said that's not The right one So I had Lenny DePaul look through the The gas station and he found another pay Phone Across from that van and that that was The number that corresponded with the Incoming call so I have no doubt that Muhammad and Malvo saw that white van There with us next to a pay phone making A call and they use that as a Distraction and we later knew that they Were probably sitting nearby watching The activity uh when everybody responded That parking lot but they had made the Call Um and then and then left that pay phone And all the attention was directed Toward that van A few questions number one what was the Substance of the approximately 30 second Recording Um

I don't remember much about what was in It I think it was just telling the um Telling Chief moose basically to make an Announcement that they had caught the Snipers like a duck in a noose really Didn't make sense to any of us you know What that phrase was but it was asking Chief moose to deliver that message as a Sign that he that they understood the Call basically but it was a pre-recorded Call they they had a small tape recorder And um It was a very short call in the end and How soon after the response by law Enforcement to the white van with two Other people in it at the Payphone next To or across from where the snipers Actually had been prior how soon after That call was that Um Was your correct information so Essentially law enforcement were they Still there dealing with the occupants Of that van and then you you know one Minute later say you guys that's not the Right pay phone or was this a matter of An hour later or what was that duration Like for you Uh the investigators with the Marshall Service both in Montgomery County and at The gas station in in near Richmond and In Springfield where I was we knew Within 15 to 20 minutes That it was the wrong guys the two

Individuals that were on the phone began Their call at 7 57 And we're still on the phone 20 minutes Later when everybody rolled into the lot So their their call had spanned the Entire time of you know the 38 seconds Right at 8 A.M when the snipers made Their call so we knew very quickly that It was the wrong one uh the the number At the phone did not match Um and we were beginning to move on the Media and everybody else I believe this thing was over and it Even confused uh the media at the press Conference later that morning they were Expecting Chief moose to have a good Announcement and when he announced the The duck in the news uh phrase It confused people they everybody Thought that the two men had been Captured but um we knew right away Um within the Marshall service that it Was not the right guys so we kept Working at it you know we kept looking At everything that we could and behind The scenes the there and there was some Confusion about this one of the callers Into Um Derek belisles had mentioned a a Liquor store robbery in Montgomery Alabama so the confusion between Montgomery Alabama and Montgomery Maryland Um existed for a few days but finally

Figured it out and when Montgomery Alabama police department was contacted They were able to find a robbery down There that these guys had made reference To when they talked to officer belisles As well as uh some of their comments to The pastor in Ashland So based on that you know the detectives In Montgomery Alabama they reviewed all Of their information it was a a robbery Of a liquor store one woman was shot and Killed The Other Woman was shot and Seriously uh wounded she recovered from Her wounds Um but they one of the items that they Had recovered down there was a gun Catalog And so that was that they had retrieved A fingerprint off of that but because Alabama did not have a um A relationship with the exchanging of Information for fingerprints with the FBI it it never went to their system so That fingerprint and that catalog were Flown to to uh Washington DC the Fingerprint was examined and it was Identified with Um Lee Boyd Malvo Now that's I I that happened on Tuesday Morning Um and there was a bit of chaos that Morning as well because The latest shooting had happened a Couple of hours earlier Conrad Johnson a

Bus driver had stepped off of his bus And had been shot and killed so the Entire attention of the task force out Of Montgomery County and Rockville was Uh toward that that latest shooting uh There was another note found there there Was a bag like a duffel bag with some Goggles and a couple of other things Found in it So we were convinced almost immediately That another you know they were Responsible for another shooting Um but late that morning I got a call From an ATF agent at the command post And he said hey um I need to provide you With this information that fingerprint From the catalog came back to Lee Boyd Mallow he gave me the FBI number he gave Me his date of birth He said they're not taking it seriously Here because Um he doesn't fit the white male profile In the right age he's he's a juvenile Um And he just doesn't fit the profile that That we're looking at so I should give Give me the information I'll take it so I I took it and over the next couple Hours I started doing everything I could On Lee boy and Malvo I had a stack of Maybe 10 other suspects Um you know that we were looking at and Trying to Either eliminate as suspects through a

Digital analysis process maybe Putting them at a crime scene or not Putting them at a crime scene I put all That aside I looked at this Malvo thing And um one of the first things that Jumped out at me is Jamaican And it's making sense with what Lenny DePaul and Vinnie senzamichi had been Saying about a Jamaican connection as Well as what the pastor had said about An accent and a younger man So I still didn't know at that point Anything connected to an older suspect Um but the fingerprints that had been Submitted to the FBI that were matching The record was an immigration contact in Washington State uh with Lee Boyd Malvo So I got a hold of Immigration and Naturalization Service uh agent and I Said you know I I can't really tell you Why but I I need all of this information From this file immediately uh because Within the information that I was seeing Um it was one contact with law Enforcement but there was a an a number In there or an immigration file number So very soon afterwards I started Getting Um information in from immigration about Lee Boyd Malvo pictures of him uh Several several different pictures of Him a picture of his mom And I start seeing a a a a bunch of contacts

In Washington State But we had that uh that credit card that Was attempted to be used uh to purchase Gasoline in Washington state so we had a Little something else going on there He had a number of contacts the Immigration contacts were based on local Police having an interaction with him And then contacting immigration so I got A hold of a colleague out in Seattle who Was with our electronic surveillance Unit and his name is Mark Jorgensen and He got a hold of people in Bellingham Washington and started finding reports Uh with Lee Boyd Malvo And so I started getting those in as and Going through them as quickly as I could Um you know it was a young man from Jamaica I think he was 17 at that Particular moment Um had not been in the U.S very long the Contact with immigration had happened The previous December and You know I had quite a bit of Information there from a single contact Because there there had been other Information that had been uploaded into His file about he and his mom you know How they got into the United States and And things like that so Once I started reviewing these reports From the Bellingham Police Department I Started noticing That there was a another individual

Often named in these things by the name Of John Muhammad or John Williams And in one of them uh it had been a Report to the local police from a Counselor at a local school and in the Report Muhammad had been interviewed and Referred to Malvo as his son So now I had two directions to go now I Had an older male involved in this that Was consistent with what the pastor had Said And I started pulling information on John Allen Williams and or John Allen Muhammad he had changed his name in I Believe 1999. So I started getting reports in from Them I found out he was in the Army I Called a friend of mine with DOD and Asked him to pull all their records on You know from his military service and Um All of this seemed to be coming through Um to make sense finally And I kind of learned over the years of Work in cases like this very often you Get a feeling right away that something Is or is not making sense with the Overall effort With with this everything was just Falling into place with these two people So I was I was making pictures of Malvo As quickly as I could and getting them Out to the different command posts with

Information Um about him his pedigree and everything And I started talking to The different command posts kind of Throwing a theory out there that you Know these two guys have some sort of a Relationship you know maybe father-son Um and I I called a colleague at the Command post and said can you Can you run this name through John Allen Muhammad can you run this through the System that was collecting all the tips At that time it's called rapid start was An FBI system to collect and analyze and Disseminate tips well he found one one Interesting note in there Um and it was from a an army colleague Of John Muhammad in Washington State And his name was Robert Holmes and he Said that he was friends with a guy Named Lee Boyd Malvo and even indicated That they had that he had called him Sniper So can I just pause you there for a Second when that call that tip that you Just referenced Had You released to the Public the name of Lee Boyd Malvo or You're saying that this person called in And said hey these facts of these Shootings fits a profile that I know of No I I nothing went out to the public at This point I was still developing Information Um on Malvo and and reports are flying

In through email and fax machines on Muhammad Um and my briefings were to the Different command posts in Fairfax and And Prince William County and and Bowie Maryland Um and down in the Richmond area to to Where those shootings had happened just Telling them what I'm looking at here Um and so this tip had just come in this This Army colleague had called in saying This the facts of these shootings fits a Profile of my former friend that I Called sniper yes yeah he called it into The FBI tip line someone had made note Of it and put it into the system uh There was no disposition on it uh Nothing had been done with it the only Markings on it I recall was a file Number that related to a kidnapping Allegation that Muhammad's wife had made Against him because at one point he took Their three children and and fled to Aruba and so she had uh contacted the FBI and filed a kidnapping Report with Them Um so that was the only reference on There but nothing had been done with the Tip Mr holmesan not been contacted at That point it just validated for me a Little bit that maybe there's something There Um And what I'm what I'm understanding here

Is that essentially so the 17 year old Lee Boyd had Um uh run in essentially with local cops In Bellingham or Blaine Washington which Is essentially the northernmost U.S city Just below Vancouver Canada and upon Realizing that he was either at some Naturalized or some some sort of of Citizen issue they contacted then ins Because it was before the creation of or Installation of DHS and so you were able To Source a ton of records from Washington state that involved not only Uh Lee Boyd as a minor and in the Immigration system there but also Because then referenced in them was the John Allen Williams John Allen Muhammad Which you learned he changed his name to Uh just three years prior to these Shootings so essentially you have a Sinus connection between Washington State Alabama Montgomery Alabama and Also then potentially now Um you know as you're looking for the Same shootings that were all in the DMV Area but this is at that point Connecting Washington state with Alabama Which was referenced in the paperwork Left Um behind at the scene in the DMV Yeah and referenced by the pastor the The the the callers into the pastor had Mentioned Montgomery Alabama robbery as Well and they had also mentioned it to

Derek belisles uh and they they had Referenced a sergeant Martino with Montgomery County but he wasn't familiar With the sergeant Martino in his Department but the callers were actually Referencing a sergeant Martina with Montgomery County Alabama So now you have been briefing all these Different command posts with your Hypothesis and with these all this Evidence and and then you You look in Rapid start you find that Tip that had been called in from another Person in Washington state and then what Happened Well when I went through all those phone Calls I probably did six seven or eight Of them Um I I really got no traction with Anything except from an FBI uh assistant Special agent in charge in Richmond After you know a 45 minute briefing on The phone He called me back and he said hey I Think you're on to something here He said um do you have a picture of Muhammad yet I said no I'm I'm working On it right now actually I I think I Told him that there was one in the Immigration file because Muhammad also Had an immigration file because he had Some problems when he came back into the United States one time under an alias so But the picture was very very poor uh

Quality and I and I didn't want to even Throw that one out there was it was You couldn't even make uh sense of it it Was more of um it looked like a copy of A copy of a copy uh that was just a Shadowy figure So I told him I said you know I'm Working on it right now and he said send Me the picture immediately when you get It he said I think you're on to Something here would you would you be Willing to brief direct or uh Mueller in The morning on what you've got And I said well I I can but not early in The morning because I had to brief my Headquarters One of the calls I had conducted that Afternoon was with with my investigative Operations group and they had scheduled A meeting for the next morning so that The director of the Marshall service Could be informed of all this So I I told the the agent I said I can Do it but I can't do it right away I Have another meeting So I had noticed in all of the stuff I Had on John Muhammad or John Williams That he had both a Washington state and A California driver's license So I called a friend of mine in San Diego that I used to work with and I Said you know I need this picture from The DMV I I've got to get this tonight And he said you know I'm at home right

Now can it wait till tomorrow I said no I really can't so you know whatever you Got to do he called me back about 20 Minutes later he said I got your picture You know what's what's the big urgency And I said you know I think you're Looking at one of the snipers in Washington DC right now I hope it's a Good picture and he said yeah it's a Good picture He sent it to me and I think you have That picture as well that I provided to You Um so it's a 1992 picture I believe of Muhammad he's In his military fatigues because he was He was stationed in Pinole uh California At the time in the military So Um it was a great picture when I when I Got an email to me I sent it to the Agent down in Richmond Uh but I had also Taken all of the information from Muhammad and Malvo and sent a letter to The FBI in Clarksburg West Virginia that Handles their uh Nationwide criminal Information center And I had asked for an offline search You know has anybody been in contact Within these two individuals with these Dates of birth Um and they found nothing basically Where they contacted and a check was run

And It showed nothing Sometime after 5 a.m I started getting The response from that it was a hundred Pages long it was a facsimile report 100 Pages long And it's you got to go through it with a Fine-tooth comb in order to really Figure it out now one of the things I Saw in there immediately was There were people in Fairfax Virginia And Montgomery County In Richmond that were all running John Allen Muhammad at this point and I Started to wonder why why is this Happening well they it was all happening After the briefings that I was doing That afternoon they they took the Information and they ran some records Checks so there were quite a few of Those but I found one in there from uh I Believe it was on the 7th or 8th it was The night following the shooting of Iran Brown uh so I I believe it's going to be The early morning hours of the 8th we Where John Allen Muhammad is contacted By a Baltimore police officer So getting the content of what happened Was the next part of the investigation So I got a hold of a a person in Baltimore with our office there the task Force there and I had asked him to reach Out to Baltimore Police Department and And find the reason for this contact you

Know was he walking down the street You know did he get arrested and he was In jail for a day or two Um what what were the circumstances of That of that contact Well it wasn't as easy as I thought it Was going to be Um at the meeting with my director that Morning was the chief Deputy from that Office Don Donovan and I described to Him what was happening and who was doing All this research and we needed to get That information Had no idea what we were going to find In the meantime I had I had done a Financial report on John Muhammad or John Williams And I still you know one of the things We were still trying to do is put them In the area put them physically you know In the area where the crimes are Happening because we did have Washington State data we did have Alabama Information but we needed to put them There Um to to start making this case you know And developing the evidence a little bit Well within that financial report I saw That his ex-wife lived in Clinton Maryland And I now had a reason for him to be There Um So it went on during the day where we

Were looking for that information with The contact with Baltimore And as I'm just going through you know All of my records and reviewing things And sending out subpoenas and And grand jury subpoenas and working With two assistant U.S attorneys from Greenbelt Maryland I see on the news That they are now Digging up a piece of property in Tacoma Washington And I knew about this this was the Information from Robert Holmes was that You know they would often shoot at a Tree stump So there would there would be Projectiles there maybe from the same Rifle that is causing the deaths in the Washington DC area But that information was not supposed to Be released Um I knew that they were getting ready To do it Um but now it was on every News Channel And it was being connected to the sniper Shooting so my big fear was Knowing that Muhammad and Malvo were Monitoring the news they were obviously Watching it because they shot the child Immediately after chief moose said your Children are safe And he was gaining his intelligence that Way just like he had been trained in the

In the military Um I had to get out of the office for a Little bit Um I was I was a little bit frustrated That we pretty much knew who they were At this point we could develop the Information we could make this happen Without anybody else getting hurt Um but now we just told them that we Know who they are So you know part of the fear was that You know a police officer may pull them Over in you know West Virginia for a Broken tail light Not knowing who they were But they weren't going to take a chance On finding out who they were I couldn't get that out of my mind So you identified that Muhammad's Ex-wife lived in Clinton Maryland that Aha moment that finally and decisively Put for you a reason for him to be in That area what steps did you take Concerning the ex-wife and were her Three children their three children Still minors under her care in that home Did you then execute a search warrant on Her home what happened what steps did You take regarding her I got a hold of the Baltimore office our Our fugitive Task Force and and told Them what was going on and we we Established a surveillance at her place

Um she was eventually contacted Um but we got a surveillance on her Location uh with the children uh within Probably an hour Um you know we still didn't know Um what vehicle that we might be looking For they had pictures now of Muhammad And Malvo so Add a little bit to go on some more Police officer that had pulled him over What car was that because well that Still was developing at that time when I Had left the office you know with the Frustration that I had of airing the Details in Washington state I had come Back to the office probably 4 35 o'clock And and someone had told me that Um they had gotten a license plate from The contact in Baltimore I mean I wasn't Expecting that at all Um so I reached out to the the deputy Marshal in Baltimore and he described it That an officer Snyder had seen the man Sitting in the in the car at a donut Place Um a couple hours later he sees him Again so he decides to contact him He runs a check on him that comes back With nothing except a protection order Um and There there's only one person in the Vehicle that he can see And he also runs a license plate It took uh the technicians at Baltimore

To go through uh audio recordings It took them six to eight hours to find This but they finally found the audio Recordings of making the the inquiry on The name and date of birth and the License plate Um I was still not a hundred percent Convinced that this was the right person Because there could be a lot of John Allen mohammeds out there with similar Dates of birth so I had the picture I Sent it to the officer and within a Couple of minutes he called me back and He said it's definitely 100 percent the Guy that I spoke to Now that puts him in the area it puts Him not too far from the shooting of Iran Brown Less than 24 hours earlier Um so now I know that he's in the area Now we know what car they're driving We know what the New Jersey license Plate is we find out very quickly that It's registered to him in New Jersey he Bought it for a couple of hundred Dollars uh from some money they stole During another shooting that was not Connected to the other shootings Immediately Um it would be later on connected to the Owner of a restaurant who was robbed of His computer and some cash and shot Several times as he was closing his Business one night so they they financed

Their their murder spree and purchasing The vehicle with that particular robbery In late September So now that we have the car we have the License plate Um I'm still got a little bit of a Problem with the two of them probably Knowing that Uh the events in Washington are taking Place are they going to dump the car are They going to jump on a bus for Chicago Um are they going to carjack someone You know we had to examine all Possibilities at this point but we still Had to look for that one particular car That was the only one that we knew about So there were meetings at the at the Jock I was not involved in them but There were there were discussions about Whether or not to publicize the license Plate and it was decided not to Um Lee Boyd Malvo was charged early that Evening as a federal material witness They wanted to get a warrant in place For him as the case continued to develop Well material witness warrants are the Responsibility of the Marshall service So we had to we had to get that Information into ncic But I also had the idea of Uh putting an administrative message out To all law enforcement agencies across The country

And just for listeners ncic is the National Crime information center so Essentially that where the Coalition of All that information is stored right so An administrative message went out to Tell people to be on the lookout for This uh dark blue Caprice with uh New Jersey license plates as related to a Federal material witness warrant for Lee Boyd Malvo Um I I had called our communication Center And asked for the message to be put out In about 15 minutes later I I saw that The message was I I looked at the Message and it had no caution on it For police officers it also identified Lee boy and Malvo as a white male Um so I called back to the Communications center and told them that Uh I needed to have the message resent Corrected and resent And so they corrected all of that Um and it was shortly after that where Those Transmissions that went out to law Enforcement from dispatchers are Sometimes monitored by news media And a radio station picked up on it and Broadcast it and a refrigerator Repairman uh on his way home back to Pennsylvania Saw the car in the rest area along Interstate 70 Um in in Maryland

And and then Yeah from from that point I got a call Uh Shortly after midnight I think I'm still In my office still working the case I Mean at this point I'm working with um you know the Assistant U.S attorneys that I'm trying To get pen registers and traps and Traces in place for the relatives that I'm aware of of uh John Allen Muhammad He had family in Louisiana Um trying to get all that in place Because I I didn't want to anticipate That this thing was going to be over but I got a phone call from someone telling Me that the car had been located at the Rest area that it was backed into a spot And that Maryland state troopers and FBI HRT and Montgomery County SWAT were all Responding to the area Um to a McDonald's up there where they Were going to be staging that they were Shutting down interstate 70. Um that they were placing canines in the Median outside of that rest area Um And that they were rehearsing to do Something with the car the one problem That we had was the witness I believe His name was Whitney Donahue he had he Did had not seen any movement in the car So it made me think again that you know Maybe they saw the news coverage and

Abandoned the car there You know but at this point abandoning The car there they would have probably Had to carjack somebody else or steal Another car from that rest area so it Would be important to us any you know Other crimes or missing cars or stolen Cars from that area that might have been Reported and there weren't any Um so at that point I kept doing what I Had to do as far as court orders and And getting those things in place and Just waiting for something to happen And it was probably sometime after 3 A.M Where I got the first of I think three Calls I ended up getting calls from Uh one of my colleagues at The Jock I Got a call from an ATF agent uh up near The rest area and I got a call from Johnny Hughes who was the U.S Marshal in The district of Maryland at the time and Still is Um and all three of them told me that Both of them were in custody at that Time What was that like for you in that Moment when you when you got that first Call and first heard the news well I was Glad definitely glad they were in Custody I was convinced that it was them At this point there's a lot of Investigation to be done in in the days And weeks and months ahead of time to You know put these different cases in

The different jurisdictions together for Prosecution Um there were already little squabblings The next morning about who was going to Get the the first opportunity Adam was It going to be the the federal uh Authorities in Maryland was it going to Be State authorities in Maryland you Know so there was a lot of discussion About which laws were in place there Were some new terrorism laws in place in Virginia that allowed for some Sentencing enhancements uh for Terror-related crimes such as this Um so that's where it ended up going Initially was to Um uh Virginia to uh for two Prosecutions uh and then uh I think four Or five prosecutions in Maryland to back That up but there are still pending Cases Um you know that could be filed today in Arizona and Florida and Texas and Louisiana and Alabama On those additional homicides that took Place uh should Um they need that John Allen Muhammad Was actually executed Um so Lee Boyd Malvo is uh still in Prison his sentence is uh being redone Now based on a Supreme Court ruling uh For sentencing uh juveniles uh to life In prison at the time uh you know when They're a juvenile at the time they

Commit their crime so he's being Re-sentenced on on some of those cases Uh but he has a uh quite a few more Cases that could be prosecuted should That need arise down the road Being a minor at the time of those Murders is what saved Malvo from uh Receiving the death penalty like Muhammad did Um but to your point yes now uh given a Supreme Court ruling any life sentencing Without parole especially is has been Ruled unconstitutional and those senses Are being Revisited Um across the country you made a call That night Bill uh you made a call to Someone that that you didn't talk about In your book who was that call to and Why I called my dad Um he had been kind of monitoring the Case I mean he does that all the time Anyway so Uh I called him you know probably 3 30 4 O'clock in the morning just to let him Know that um You know both guys are in custody I knew he'd want to know so um that was Important Oh Dad What strikes me in part about this case Is not only the jurisdictional and Logistical absolute nightmare that this Posed for the hundreds of Agents working So diligently across all the agencies

And in local and State uh Realms to to Try to identify who was behind this but Also that it seems to me that at every Step of the way you were working you had To combat Essentially which what was a decisive Conclusion Made by that profile that because of the Initial profile as you said it was Developed over a certain amount of time But the fact that it was a single you Know white male with this the white Paneled van that you had to consistently But abut that presumption not only with Your resources but with your convincing So when you spoke about you know Briefing all of the command post heads And only one you know it just took one But only one really accepted the idea And even to the very end when as you put Out the warrant for a federal material Witness you had to correct the record no No guys it's not a white male that have This correct information in it Um it seems to me that really set a tone For the investigation that seems that it Could be frustrating or challenging at a Minimum at times Yeah and it went a little bit further Than that Um when I did the briefing to the Director of the Marshall service on that Wednesday morning Um

I had gone through everything with Muhammad and Malvo and how they were Connected together and uh their Washington State roots and that their Wife was here and you know at that point We're still looking to for the for the Vehicle we're hours away from developing That information Um but when I when I left that meeting And started driving back to Springfield I got a call from Um one of the unit Chiefs and he said Listen Um he said I'm just trying to verify This and we're trying to put this Together so that the director can Prepare a report to some members of Congress or something like that and he Said but I just want to make sure that We're talking about two white males Right and and I said no we're they are They're both African-American The young man is of Jamaican descent John Muhammad was born and raised in Louisiana But they are black males and he said but That's not what the profile says I mean Even my own leadership was was Kind of saying we we need to keep going With the the profile here we had been at A um I believe it was in Um Fair uh Prince William County they Had had a briefing in an auditorium After their shooting and

We we went down there one of the people That spoke was a profiler from Quantico And he put this profile up on the screen And talked about it and why they Believed this and I remember myself and About three of the people that I was With we walked out of the room Um we because we we Could believe the profile if that's Where the evidence and the information Took us but we just weren't there yet And profiles are just largely based on Examining previous crimes like that and Looking at those averages of of what Those uh suspects or actors uh are made Up of so It was something we had to acknowledge And and look at but you have to let the Facts of the case determine where you're Going with the investigation and and not Things like that And it's so interesting to see how much Weight those profiles carry and again as You point out they are created because Humans create them and it sort of calls To mind in the Golden State killer Profile remember the original profile Profiler had put in there had determined He the killer likely had a shooting Experience military experience she felt Likely law enforcement experience and Her boss made her take that out Um and it was a fascinating a Fascinating example of essentially the

Level of persuasion often you have to go Through to even submit those profiles Even get those approved so and then Contrast that with here which is Essentially the profile all of a sudden Carries as much weight as a piece of Evidence does or even more as you Outline to your frustration Um because frankly the evidence didn't Point to that after a while so really Interesting contrast yeah you take those Profiles and you give them the weight They deserve as part of the Investigation uh but in this particular Case I think the the way weight provided To the white box truck or the white Utility truck and the and the criminal Profile were given too much weight Um and and the investigation was tried To be pushed into those directions Rather than just allow the information To come back and then work with the Evidence that we were developing And notwithstanding what we just Discussed uh what would you say is the Biggest lesson that you learned or that Law enforcement learned from that entire Case uh and what are you most proud of You know it was uh it was a great case I I've been involved in a lot of cases Like this over the years where there are Multiple agencies involved and and Geographic scope is Broad Um the Andrew coonan Case started in San

Diego Um I was the the coordinator of the task Force during that case he was from San Diego he traveled to Minnesota and Killed two people went to Chicago and Killed Lee miglin killed an individual In New Jersey and then ended up killing Gianni Versace in Miami Florida so the Geographic scope of that was just as Large as the sniper case It didn't involve as many agencies Probably in the end Um we know now that the sniper case You know went on for eight months then It started in February in Tacoma Washington when Kenya cook was was shot By Melville at the front door of ice and Nichols house who uh was probably the Intended target Um we know of all the other shootings That took that have took place during Their Rampage and where they got the Weapons so Um I was I was proud to be part of a of A great investigation that ended up you Know convicting both of these Individuals of what they did Um And I was I was pleased with the Outcomes um John Al Muhammad deserved to Be executed and Lee Boyd Melville Deserves to spend the rest of his life In prison Thank you so much for your service it's

Really your story is an incredible Illustration of the tenacity the level Of attention to detail Um and that that commitment the Determination to see something through Based on facts and evidence despite all Of the challenges and pressures that we Were just discussing discussing it's It's truly remarkable bill it's been an Honor to talk with you today and to have You spend your time with us it really Has been um no doubt you absolutely Saved lives because clearly every day That went on that those two monsters Weren't caught they were delighting in Continuing their murderous spree and it Was a horrifying chapter of U.S history It was a horrifying year Um but you put an end to it well and and It was um it was a pleasure to work a Case like that and and work with the Thousands and thousands of law Enforcement people across the country it Wouldn't have got done with one person Or two people it took the work of Thousands of people and hundreds of Agencies over four or five years after That first shooting to put these cases Together and determine all of the Shootings and all the homicides they Were involved with so Um when you can work with a large group Like that and have the success that we Had within a few short weeks to not only

Determine who they were but to get them In custody and successfully prosecuted Is the the the end of what you do so and It's a reflection on that investigative Effort so there were thousands of people Uh prosecutors and administrative Employees and you know people from uh Cellular carriers that we were working With on a daily basis and Um you know there were hundreds from the Marshall service but there were Thousands from another 100 agencies Across the country and it it was a it Was a case that you don't forget And what I love about your the story is How it also underscores each touch Point Those thousands of individuals how Everyone plays that part that then Pivots the story in that then trajectory That leads to a point of no return for Identifying those men ultimately you Know from canine Beacon to the ATF agent That had the ballistics under control And Washington State and California DMV I mean it was it's a really really Remarkable uh constellation of figures That each had a material impact on the Case It was it was it was a pleasure to work The case and work with all those people Do you have any last message or any last Words that you want to share with Listeners I don't think so

I think we covered it we covered it Um but so much more uh your book Chasing Evil is incredible I recommend it of Course so highly and we'll put all the Information below with how folks can Find you and listen to more of your Incredible stories because this one on The Beltway snipers cases just the tip Of the iceberg of your illustrious Career sir so thank you again for your Service thank you

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